In the first episode of Guys Girls, host Caroline Timoney (COL ’23) and cohost Olivia Duff (COL ’23) sit down to discuss recent pop culture moments, their dating experiences at Georgetown, as well as advice they have for new students. Tune in to hear their thoughts on “Don’t Worry Darling” (2022), what “boyfriend theory” is, and whether or not Georgetown men have it easy when it comes to relationships.
This podcast was edited by Amna Shamim (COL ’25) and produced by Alicia Novoa (COL ’23) and Valerie Blinder (COL ’24).
Transcript
Caroline Timoney (CT): My thesis statement is, and I will write my senior year thesis on this, and you might say, “But you’re not actually writing a thesis,” and I say, “Of course not, I don’t like to write that much.” But, a Georgetown man, who is looking like a straight man at Georgetown, dating women, can get away with mur-der. Murder, murder, murder.
Olivia Duff (OD): And you know what that comes back to? It’s going to be the ratio.
*Introduction music plays*
CT & OD: One, two, three. Guys Girls!
CT: Yeah, that’s right.
OD: We said it, because we get along with boys better.
CT: Why?
OD: Because girls are drama. Girls are difficult.
CT: Yeah, guys you can hang out with and have fun with, if that makes sense to any of you.
OD: So this podcast is for the boys, unlike anything else.
CT: The only person it’s for ahead of the boys is for us.
OD: Well, of course.
CT: I’m Caroline Timoney.
OD: And I’m Olivia Duff.
*Introduction Music fades out*
CT: Introduction, I’m Caroline, I’m a senior in the College, majoring in government. Ultimately, government, as it turns out, was randomly not my passion, although I’m finished with the major. I have minors in Business Administration as well as Film and Media studies, and after graduation, I am hoping to work in the entertainment industry. “Caroline what does that mean?” Oh I don’t know, I don’t know. Olivia?
OD: Wow! Tough act to follow. I’m Olivia, I’m an American Studies major, and, shockingly, I do love it. It’s as close as you can get to majoring in pop culture. And that’s sort of the path that I’ve carved for myself here. I also study English and Spanish. I’m originally from Chicago, and that is half of my personality. No, I’m not a Cubs fan. Crowd goes wild. And after graduation, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I’m probably going to go to law school. Sue me. That’s all on that.
CT: That’s that on that.
OD: That’s all she wrote.
CT: Absolutely.
OD: Though she be but little, she is fierce.
CT: Yeah, so today we’re talking about some of our theories (OD: High level theories) on dating, our research (OD: Scientific, of course) on specifically dating at Georgetown, on (OD: Culture) a little theory we have called “boyfriend phase,” which we will dive deep deep into later on. We’ll talk pop culture a little bit, (OD: As we always do).
OD: And just sort of keeping our fingers on the pulse of the scholarly conversation of what it is to be a woman at Georgetown University.
CT: Absolutely.
OD: Do you think that sums it up?
CT: I think you did great work. Ok cool. So, Olivia, hi.
OD: Hi, honey.
CT: How’s your day going?
OD: I would say that my day is pretty contingent on the weather, and today it’s been sort of stormy.
CT: It’s a nightmare, hellscape out there.
OD: So I’ve been doing a lot of Adele — I’ve been hitting that pretty hard. I’ve been doing a lot of “Burn” from “Hamilton,” of course. Boom. “Hamilton” reference five seconds in. How’s your day going, C?
CT: Uh, it’s been good. I feel like there’s a lot going on right now, and I’m just like, “I can’t believe how much is going on in the world.”
OD: It’s astounding, actually. And also how much is being expected of…
CT: Of such a little, young girl such as myself.
OD: Exactly, I can’t believe I’m expected to go to meetings. That’s something I grapple with on a day-to-day basis, that I’m supposed to go to a meeting. It’s like, “I’m 21, what do you mean?”
CT: Here’s my thing, too, is so many people… The amount of meetings some of these clowns — not clowns, I say clowns with a lot of love. (OD: Call them by their names) Some of the people on this campus have so many meetings in a day, where I’m like, “What are you talking about? Who are you speaking to? What do you mean?”
OD: “What is there actually to be talking about that much?”
CT: It’s always about job or club.
OD: It’s never fun.
CT: It’s like, but who, how many people could you possibly be networking with?
OD: And the answer is 15 and a half. No, it’s unreasonable, I think.
CT: But I think also there’s sort of an interesting dichotomy because I will go ahead and have maybe a handful of meetings a week. I feel like if I have one big meeting in a week, I’m like kicking and screaming.
OD: Oh, it’s a performance.
CT: I’m like, “Hey guys,” I’m publicizing it. I go to Red Square and put up posters and say “I have a meeting today.”
OD: I’m absolutely tabling talking about my meeting, and it’s a performance ultimately of business. When it’s like I may have one in a whole week to maybe talk about something fun.
CT: Which brings me [to my] main critique of Georgetown would have to be the busyness (OD: Productivity) culture.
OD: Oh, we’ve said it! We’re the first people to say it!
CT: Which is actually kind of crazy that we’re the first people to say it.
OD: People are shocked that we’ve come out and said something so provocative.
CT: If there’s one thing I would love to lead a movement for, you might say social change, women’s rights, nope.
OD: Don’t care about that. We tried going to The Women’s March one time, and that was enough for us.
CT: We actually did. The women’s everything was kind of fixed after…
OD: We did, and we were sort of bummed out to hear about the whole Roe v. Wade thing, because imagine, “Uh-oh, we’ve got to go to another Women’s March!”
CT: That is not the best sound-byte I have ever heard.
OD: I don’t know how good of an introduction that is.
*Laughing*
OD: I think our mothers would be proud. My mom is famously anti-woman and proud of it.
CT: And to be so clear, everything we’ve ever said has been a joke.
OD: It is.
CT: We’ve never been serious in our lives.
OD: Tongue is firmly in cheek, as Taylor Swift did when she wrote “Blank Space.” That’s what this is.
CT: Really? How’s that?
OD: It’s actually written about a bit. It’s written about the — let me just educate you — it’s written about the, sort of, persona that the press created of her, and so Blank Space, she’s supposed to be a character. You know in the music video? She’s kind of like this womanizer —
CT: “Oh, boys only want love if it’s torture” —
OD: “I can make all the tables turn, I can make the bad guy good for a weekend.” It’s very much like, “Grab your passport and my hand.” I can do sort of a slam poetry reading of the whole thing.
CT: And I guess, the main question that a lot of people are asking, sort of calling in and saying, “What was sort of our main topic right now?”
OD: Everything. Everyone’s asking about it. I think, potentially, we have a lot to say about relationships.
CT: We have a lot to say about relationships.
OD: Because we are famously so good at them.
CT: The ears of the nation are turning to us, asking us, and these are the ears that are asking too —
OD: The ears are using their voices finally for once.
CT: Speak up, speak up. And we are —
OD: That’s terrible!
CT: No, it’s important. Ok, so I — relationship advice.
OD: Yeah and again, I think that we should sort of explain where we’re coming from, in that we are both very good, we’re engaged to be married — not together, two separate engagements.
CT: Not engaged to be married.
OD: And we both wear claddagh rings, which makes us experts naturally.
CT: We are professionals. What was it that you said earlier, there was something you wanted to tell me?
OD: So a wise woman said to me recently, and by a wise woman, I mean, one of my academic advisors, she said the best dating advice that she could give me was to be as cruel to all men as possible.
CT: Really?
OD: And you might, you might be asking me, “Was she being serious?” And to this day, I’m not entirely sure. But I’ve been really sort of grappling with that. Thinking about it, and implementing it into my everyday life.
CT: I think that because dating it’s — Listen out there in a male-female relationship, it’s already going to be, go ahead and be inherently unequal. And so if my sister always says this, my wise sister, who is my age, yeah. That if a guy does not — no, that a guy needs to like the girl better in a relationship, or she’s else being wronged.
OD: My mother also says that.
CT: I think that’s kind of true.
OD: She goes, “Always go with the guy who likes you more than you like him.”
CT: Yeah, it’s true.
OD: Because you always know it’s a sure thing.
CT: Right.
OD: So that would, that would again be advice from two experts who aren’t us. We’ve only sort of cited other sources. And that’s how you know that we’re academic, because we’re creating a website and a bibliography as we speak.
CT: I feel like I don’t have advice so much as just kind of like theories on dating as a whole.
OD: Oh, you have a lot.
CT: And just kind of how it shimmies down how it shakes out. One tip that we’ve sort of been experiencing, experimenting with, (OD: Exploiting) in our daily lived practice is waking up. It’s almost in the same way that someone would do like a daily meditation. We just kind of wake up and I say, “Oh my god, I can’t leave. I’m single.” And then you say, “Why do you do that?”
OD: Because it’s outrageous first and foremost.
CT: And if you don’t do that every single morning, you are a part of the problem.
OD: Then you lose your sparkle. Here’s what happens: you have to like stay on your toes about it. I would say I just like feel anger coursing through my veins, from the minute I open my eyes.
CT: What it is is because, again, this is something I have not — now that I say it, I haven’t physically implemented it yet, but the whole concept is that you wake up, and if you don’t acknowledge it, if you don’t acknowledge the problem, then (OD: How are you going to fix it?) you’re normalizing it.
OD: How are you going to fix it, girl? You got to make the familiar strange. That’s called deconstruction, for the listeners at home.
CT: Yeah.
OD: One hundred percent, I would say that I’m sort of constantly feeling mad about it. And, again, in the same way that I feel about meetings, it’s like, there’s a hint of a crisp in the air, and I don’t have a boyfriend — doesn’t make sense.
CT: Right exactly. No, a lot of times I’m like, “Okay, sure I’ve been single for so — like whatever, sure.”
OD: But it’s here and now in this economy, and it’s officially pumpkins. It is the age and time of pumpkins.
CT: And it’s one of those things where you say “Um this isn’t right, and I’m not going to stand by it. I’m not going to normalize it any longer than I already have.” Um yeah.
OD: We have to add that to the list of things we need to table about in Red Square.
CT: Us, specifically, personally, individually being single, and how that’s wrong.
OD: And I think people around, I’ve been saying to them, “I can’t believe this.” Pitbull says “Every day above ground is a great day.”
CT: “Remember that.”
OD: But I think that every day — Dale, of course. Sorry, delayed, delayed response on that. But um, no I can’t believe it. And it doesn’t feel like a great day when I wake up, and I remember, and I think, “This is outrageous.” And how is everyone else walking around their days, “Little Ducks Make Way for Ducklings” walking around campus. They’re not thinking about this. And when I say this to them, they say, “You’re right. I wasn’t thinking about that. Now I am. Thank you for calling it to my attention.”
CT: Important, valid and the future. Okay. I want to hear I feel like we’ve discussed it a little bit in terms of like pop culture roundup.
OD: Okay.
CT: Thoughts that’s going on. I feel like “Don’t Worry Darling” is something that comes to mind for me —
OD: Sort of an exhale.
CT: Do you want to talk about it? You’re already speaking from a place of…
OD: …Hatred?
CT: Okay.
OD: Actually, I don’t know. To be fair, I don’t know that I’m educated enough to be speaking from a place of hatred, because I did spend about 40 minutes of the movie with the popcorn bag in front of my face. Because I was petrified and terrified. And so maybe I can’t, maybe I can’t critique it, because I haven’t really seen it in its entirety. But I just, it felt a little second wave to me. It felt a little…
CT: What are you, like, what do you mean?
OD: I’m sort of referencing Betty Friedan.
CT: Yeah, Feminine Mystique.
OD: Yeah, so that’s what I’m saying. No one has asked me to explain that yet, so I’m glad you asked.
CT: But I guess like, you mean, it just like didn’t have the right or the kind of view that you would want it to, feminism-wise?
OD: Well, just to me, I’m like, Okay, we’re still going to do the housewife thing. Like, aren’t we past?
CT: Well the whole idea is that that is bad.
OD: Well yeah, but it is, isn’t it?
CT: Yeah.
OD: Well I mean, aren’t we past critiquing it?
CT: No! Of course we’re not, because there’s still housewives.
OD: Well, that’s true. But also some housewives want to be housewives
CT: I know.
OD: But can’t we, can’t we empower them too?
CT: It’s also the concept I think it’s part of it is like, you know, you think of the housewife format as antiquated especially it was like 1950s style.
OD: Right.
CT: But then to bring that to modern day and reveal that ultimately, it was in our present modern days 2022, right? And so it’s like those, those undercurrents are still there, like the Harry Styles character in the real world who looked like a slime greaseball.
OD: It’s actually atrocious.
CT: They did a wonderful job at that, honestly.
OD: It is hard to make that man look unwell.
CT: They did some good work.
OD: I think you might have a point.
CT: Right? It’s just like, he was listening to all these like, I don’t know, Joe Rogan, Andrew-Tate-esque podcasts or whatever, kind of things. And like, I feel like that just it the whole concept is like that these still like super regressive concepts and ideas are still out there. And people still actively believe in them. And like, you know, in this Black-Mirror-y, nightmare scenario, like people would still want to end like, you know, we like to think that as, like, we were at a place —
OD: As girls who went to The Women’s March one time, we think that we’re sort of in a post-feminist era. But it is sort of “Victory is not final” vibes.
CT: And isn’t the town called Victory?
OD: Oh my god, I didn’t even — I actually got that quote from a Teen Vogue. That was, that was the cover of a Teen Vogue. It said “Victory is not final.”
CT: So my thoughts, if you allow it.
OD: No, no absolutely, please.
CT: I liked it. I thought the main issue I had with it was like plot-hole wise, it seemed like it was too much like I get like, “Listen, this is like you’re not supposed to understand anything. It’s supposed to be confusing — or you’re not supposed to understand everything, but it got to a point where it was like “okay.”
OD: I felt like it was a little gratuitous in terms of the violence. She’s putting saran wrap over her [expletive] head. Oops sorry, I don’t know if I can say, sorry.
CT: I think we can say anything in the world.
OD: Oh, okay. Incredible. I went for a walk in the middle of the film because I was feeling afraid. And I came back and she had the saran wrap going. I also think it played, it played on the trope of like the first person to die is a person of color. That was another thing to me that felt a little second wave-y. Do you know what I mean?
CT: Yeah, I can see that.
OD: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, there were elements of it. And Olivia Wilde, also famous for “Booksmart,” which, love that.
CT: I didn’t like “Booksmart;” I don’t think they were funny.
OD: Okay, Caroline, would you like to elaborate?
CT: I don’t think they were funny. Next question. I don’t think they were funny. Next question. No, I guess I want to say, on “Don’t Worry Darling,” I thought Florence Pugh’s performance was amazing.
OD: Oh, she could act the ABCs, and I would believe it.
CT: Yeah, I was like, “Oh this is her swan song.” Is swan song the right word?
OD: It’s a cultural text. Swan song is like —
CT: I think that’s like, when you’re dying or something.
OD: Are you thinking of “Black Swan?”
CT: No. Is your computer working?
OD: Yeah, would you like to? Is your refrigerator running? Would you like to do some research? On the spot? Oh it is a film.
CT: “Swan Song,” 2021. That’s amazing.
OD: Cultural texts.
CT: Meaning, meaning, meaning. Okay, swan song is a person’s final public performance. Certainly not her final public —
OD: No, no, no, but notable.
CT: I like to say her real I like it really like, it’s a coming of age novel (OD: Of the Floernce Pugh experience). And then I thought, I thought you’ve heard this before me saying this to you. But I think people were way too quick to judge Harry Styles. I think everyone wanted to say, “Oh Harry, you know, he’s a singer, not an actor.” And I think it almost surprised me the level to which I think girlies, even the ones who were fans of him. Like, it was almost like to me, they went to the theater to support Harry, but were they supporting his career as an actor? I don’t think so. I’m not even that much of a Harry Styles, like, die-hard fan.
OD: You just support art.
CT: I support art. And I remember, like, when I was watching it in theaters, they were the second he started really acting like doing a dramatic scene, people were like, “Hehehe.” And I was like, “Let’s actually give Harry a moment.”
OD: Let’s actually do something radical and take art seriously.
CT: Even at the last scene, they said it was really bad, but I didn’t think it was, and I think you’re trying to laugh at him.
OD: But let me say this. I think one of my favorite parts of the film, actually, one of the only things that I enjoyed about the whole ordeal was feeling in community. And that was adding to my feeling of community. It was like going to a SoulCycle class, I felt like I walked in, the girlies are there, and they’re gonna laugh and we’re gonna all have this moment as a community. And I think that’s important because media is so fragmented now, and you’ve heard me say this before. But there’s so few moments of like, we’re all having one shared experience together, save like maybe the Super Bowl. Do you know what I mean?
CT: It’s also interesting (OD: to be in a room) to be sort of described that as like a shortcut. I think it’s mostly (OD: with other girls) without the — yeah, but that’s still a fragmented experience. Right? Like, like to just be with a specific population.
OD: Well, yeah.
CT: Like younger girls who like, know it from social media basic drama.
OD: That’s a good point as well, but I feel like it’s —
CT: I think it’s a communal experience for sure, and I stand by you. I think your opinions are important.
OD: Thanks. Thanks for saying that.
CT: Yeah. What else is going on? Oh, I mean, I feel like have you been hauling like Adam Levine, wife-cheating?
OD: I haven’t done as deep of a dive.
CT: Last week there was also the Try Guys guy who cheated on his wife.
OD: These are all things that I’m seeing, and I’m aware that they’re happening, but I haven’t done deep dives on them.
CT: Perhaps I’ll expand it for you a little more.
OD: Yeah, take me there.
CT: People have been connecting it to like John Mulaney, Adam Levine, and this Try Guys guy who’s like, it was like a Buzzfeed-YouTuber kind of thing was the Try Guys. They were all made it a part of their personal brand to be like, wife-guys. I know you’re very familiar with John Mulaney. I feel like he had a lot of stuff that was like “I love my bombshell wife.”
OD: Oh, yeah.
CT: And I think there’s something to be said for like the overcompensating —
OD: John Mulaney, now with Olivia Wilde, question mark?
CT: No, no, no, Olivia Wilde with Harry Styles. John Mulaney with Olivia Munn with baby.
OD: Did you know what I did? See, this is really off the topic, but I have to share it because I have an emergency share. This morning, I saw that there was a dress spray-painted onto Bella Hadid at a fashion show. You see that?
CT: Yeah, I actually watched like part of the video and was like —
OD: What was the point of that? Was it supposed to be performance art?
CT: I don’t think it’s supposed to be performance art. It’s all performance.
OD: Just chalk it all up to performance.
CT: I was like, “I don’t really know.” I feel like I don’t understand fashion, that like high fashion, to the point where I’m like, I see runway show and I think, “What is it?”
OD: It’s not for me. It’s not for me.
CT: It’s always like truly a collection of, in my opinion, trash bags, (OD: Oh) thrown onto a model in a haphazard way. And they’re like “Fashion!”
OD: Exactly, that’s what high fashion is.
CT: Although, hard to do, and harder than you would think. Like I think it’s actually super hard to model.
OD: To model? Yes. To fashion? No.
CT: What do you mean, “To fashion?”
OD: For me, for me, I think if you wanted to just be an avant garde designer, you could just like kind of like, assume a persona and do something like as far outside of the mainstream as possible. And I think like, I could do that probably.
CT: You could.
OD: Maybe that’s hubris. But I do see, I see that as a possibility. It’s one of those things where it’s like, “How hard can it be?” Do you know what I mean? Modeling? Sure. That I’ll sort of give the rigor that it’s that it presents itself as but —
*Ringing noise*
OD: Oh we have a call from a viewer on campus!
CT: Oh, we have a call-in from a fan, to hear more about our dating theory and our on campus dating experience. Oh?
OD: Er? That’s NSFW. But we do have theory, no?
CT: No, we have theory.
OD: Speaking of Bella Hadid —
CT: My on-campus dating experience, and I know everyone listening will probably think, “Oh, it’s been a dream. It’s been awesome. Every Georgetown guy is a good guy, a great man, and a good father and husband.” But oddly enough, no, it has not been (OD: smooth sailing) a great dating experience.
CT: My thesis statement is, and I will write my senior year thesis on this, and you might say, “But you’re not actually writing a thesis,” and I say, “Of course not, I don’t like to write that much.” But, a Georgetown man, who is looking like a straight man at Georgetown, dating women, can get away with mur-der. Murder, murder, murder.
OD: And you know what that comes back to? It’s going to be the ratio.
CT: Oh I was going to say the ratio is [expletive].
OD: We skew slightly female. When something is wrong with the ratio, Mercury is in retrograde. And we’re perpetually in retrograde on campus.
CT: That’s actually the reason why Mercury went into retrograde last year, and the gender ratio is famously only getting worse.
OD: And you might say, “How great it is to have women in education?” Yeah of course. But how great is it if the ratio is right?
CT: Oh my god.
OD: But no, of course, so happy to see women in higher education.
CT: It’s just an unfortunate side-consequence. Like are women smarter? Yes.
OD: I’m going to talk to the admissions office about it.
CT: I’ll go up to them and say —
OD: “Hey guys, can we have a second? Can we have the room? I have something I would like to say.” But ultimately, I agree with you. I think that Georgetown boyfriends are liable for murder.
CT: I think you can get away with — whoa.
OD: I think sort of similar to the country “Goodbye Earl” to the “No Body, No Crime” of women killing their men and never getting caught. And also “Where The Crawdads Sing” —
CT: Olivia, I’m losing track! I’m losing track.
OD: Let me take you there. So we have this trope, in typically or like broader cultural imagination, which is, the woman is killing her terrible, terrible husband,
CT: I’ve heard of murder…
OD: No no, you’ve of course heard of murder I know but this is what I’m gonna liken it to. I’m gonna say that – that trope is in play, the game is afoot on Georgetown’s campus, but it’s the other way around, it’s men can get away with murder
CT” You’re explaining murder to me
OD: This is – this is a thought that I’m just having right now, and that’s all I have to say on it, is that
CT: You yield your time?
OD: I’m gonna yield my time to the girl with the theory
CT: Thank you
OD: And I’ll stop, I’ll let you put it in common speak
CT: Thank you so much (OD: language of the people), right exactly, you’re too lofty(OD: too high up, academic) right right year, But I think iut;s basically just that it’s so – it’s already right, already, there’s more women at Georgetown, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I think there are more women who like, go out more, I guess
OD: Women are social creatures, theory backs that up
CT: It’s hard, it’s like, I don’t wanna say the women of Georgetown are more normal, but that’s what I mean, that is what I mean. I think there’s not – I think there’s more women who are normal than… (OD: men who are normal), men who are normal
OD: In a heterosexual dating pool
CT: yeah yeah. But yes, I think it creates a challenging dynamic, where, as a man at Georgetown, you’re like, oh my god, all these girls are so smart
OD: All these girls are obsessed with me (CT:normal) But I also feel as though every woman who goes to Georgetown is sort of, the president of the United States, and that she’s the head of, I don’t know, a space club. She’s also the head, she also bakes. She runs a nonprofit, (CT: she runs everyday) that does baking for orphans. Yeah, and she runs a marathon every morning. And that’s I think, sort of the everygirl of Georgetown.
CT: and the average man at Georgetown has (OD: She goes out every night) an involvement – one involvement, maybe. Maybe. I wonder if there’s a thing like, less men are involved in clubs, I bet that a lot of club applications get more women, I would also bet that (OD: oh, a hundred percent). And I’m saying, – you might say, “what are the numbers on this” we have none. We have none (OD: it’s just off of feelings) and I think in many ways, opinions are the most important scientific evidence, a person can have
OD: Exactly, exactly. Nobody talks about this, as well, in the academia sphere on campus (CT: they’re afraid to) How important actually making claims are, and not hiding behind numbers. I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with that, in fact I’d heartily agree with that statement.
CT: And then I think it just perpetuates like sort of a hook- hookup culture more so, you don’t necessarily feel the pressure to settle down as it were. Yeah
OD: I think that’s how things sort of manifest in the sphere. And, and let me ask you this. You also have a, let’s say, people do hypothetically settle down, you have sort of a universal theory on what it means to be a boyfriend. Do you feel comfortable taking us through that?
CT: Do, do you – are you talking about boyfriend phase?
OD: I’m referring to boyfriend phase.
CT: Okay, so boyfriend phase is one of our main theories that we’ve been developing with a team of scientific (OD:expert) experts and geniuses across America, who are actually the two of us only the two of us (OD:again) Importantly, importantly, and so the whole idea behind boyfriend phase is and like people, listen, we have presented this idea to a couple of boards of esteemed colleagues.
OD: It’s been tiring, it’s been tiring, but it’s work we have to do
CT: Especially people with boyfriends, occasionally have an issue with this, so –
OD: Well, those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Of course, it’s risky and it’s provocative and not everyone’s gonna be happy when you’re making art. And when you’re doing things that sort of push, you’re just you’re just high heeling that glass ceiling. Someone said that to me. A member? Said it to me (CT: good, good Citing our sources.) Finally, for once.
CT: We love to plagiarize – plagiarize
OD: Intellectual property is, a farce (CT: We eat it for dinner) Yeah, breakfast lunch dinner, IP. And being angry about being single. That’s the day to day
CT: I wouldn’t see it as being angry, so much as standing in constant protest to the fact that we’re single
OD: Yeah .Yeah, And it’s a reckoning really, it’s like something that everyday you have to wake up and be like, I just remembered again, you know, and it’s really difficult. But let’s, not let’s not stray from the gospel at hand.
CT: Boyfriend phase.(OD: Boyfriend phase) Okay. Yeah, we haven’t even actually dove into it, which-
OD:No, no, and it deserves a lot of build up I think, so I think we sort of have to preface the preface on boyfriend phase for sure
CT: Uh-hu. This is the snowy mountain peak (OD: absolutely) The idea behind boyfriend phase is a way it was kind of a trend, we noticed it began as seeing when people post their boyfriends on Instagram. And I think like, I especially noticed it through like maybe high school friends slash people you like aren’t in regular contact with as much because you don’t necessarily know their boyfriends before they post on social media before they go, sort of live with one (OD: hard launch) Yeah, and the concept behind boyfriend phase is it’s it’s this almost, would you how would you describe the phase?
OD: I would say it’s a testament to being a girlfriend in America because again, it really goes back to this girlfriend is a supermodel, girlfriend, you know, girlfriend eats problems for breakfast and solutions for dinner, and boyfriend is just happy to be there. That’s what I think.
CT: And sort of, appearance wise, its, its, – um. Really getting into it is – oh god
OD: Here’s the thing, here’s the thing, here’s the thing, it’s, you can’t – you know it when you see it, like you can’t quite put your finger on the definition.
CT: is it (OD: is it) ok, you look at this man, you say: this is the most regular man in America. And he keeps winning awards for truly being the most regular, regular man I’ve ever laid my eyes on. (OD: Average Joe), and I’m not saying, this is not us saying, Your boyfriend’s our ugly, that’s not what we’re saying at all
OD: People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, all though of course we are engaged. To separate men. Who definitely exist, and are real people, and it’s important that everyone is cognizant of that.
CT: Our boyfriends, who are fiances as well, they’re real, and separate
OD: For sure they’re airy real, (CT: ok) First airy real of the day
CT: right, but we’re not trying to say, oh, your boyfriends ugly.(OD: no, no, it’s not about that) Even, even, I think of boyfriend phase as (OD: even handsome men), oh even, yes (OD: even and especially) oh, especially handsome men, artists formerly known as handsome men, once you post – its about the social media lens, I think, that’s a really critical aspect of it, the lens of looking at a man on my (OD: scroll, scroll, scroll) where ultimately it’s like, he looks so, (OD: just like a guy) he’s just any other guy, and I’m like, who is this?
OD: it’s boyfriend, presumably
CT: I think part of it, is, when you’re posting, boyfriend, as a girlfriend, you think, I just love this – and I think, ultimately it tender, it’s sweet
OD: are you gonna say those words (CT: what) that I think you;re gonna say. Two G’s? Are you gonna say that? (CT: I don’t know what). Goofy guy?
CT: Goofy guy, right. I just love this goofy guy, and he is so silly to me. And you’re like, and we think- and I think , and we it’s a beautiful thing –
OD: no and we love love, lets -again, as fiances, we are obsessed with love,. We again, eat love for breakfast, but at the same time – at the same time –
CT: I, I go on social media and I say, Oh, who is your betrothed, let me take a closer look, oh it’s the most regular man in america (OD: it’s a guy) It’s any other guy. And I think, I actually think that a lot of times, it’s almost – even, not that of a good picture of him. Or, she’ll post like a little, like, one ear, and it’s like, them at dinner together – and the way he smiles, too – cause men don’t know how to smile
OD: No they don’t, cause they weren’t taught to, and that’s society’s problem, that’s society’s fault. We need to teach our boys how to smile.
CT: it has, an interesting through line, I think it has, a – similaitry that you don’t see, when a girl, if I were to post a picutre of a dear friend, who is a girl, it would trypcially be aa good picture or I would be murdered in my sleep.
OD: Unless you’re me, who famously posts bad pictures of my friends
CT: Cruel and unusual, but that’s your birthright. Um, but, I, I think there’s a connection between the way, the manner – the way that a boyfriend phase picture looks, reminds me almost, of the way a mothers picture looks, for her children. Where it’s like, when your mom posts (OD: it’s innately female) It is inherently female, and when your mom posts for you on Facebook, you’re like “oh, I look like the Pillsbury Doughboy”.(OD: and she just thinks you look beautiful) and she just thinks you look beautiful. (OD: because she loves you) It’s like a mother’s love, but, actually-
OD: You’re sort of, you’re sort of, taking that maternal instinct, maternal thinking-
CT: People think that a woman in love, should be her boyfriend –
OD: Sort of a sponge-like figure, perhaps, dare we say. Is that too Freudian for you? I think there is sort of a maternal quality in being a girlfriend, in that you are, especially if you’re the first girlfriend of a man, you’re sort of breaking him in.
CT: Well actually if you’re the first girlfriend of a man (OD: you’re a hero) you are a hero, and I think, an interesting thing about men, I don’t think they ever get over that, in their lives
OD: Oh absolutely. They go to the grave thinking about their first girlfriend, because of the work, that she does (CT: That’s a legal, law, that’s the U.S. constitution.) She’s doing girlfriend work, and I think that should be recognized as other mothering
CT: when I grow up I wanna be, a first girlfriend, that’s what my, higher aspiration is
OD: it’s not for everyone, I don’t think
CT: right, I guess you’re – it’s training wheels
OD: It is sort of a grueling process, and I don’t want us to lose the rigor and intensity of what it is to be a first girlfriend and I want us to be respectful of that experience, while we’re speaking on it
CT: yeah, yeah, um
OD: But ultimately, I think critics of the theory say, you’ve just done this whole roundabout on, being a girlfriend in America, and whatever else, but you haven’t exactly described what this is when you see it, um, so.. To that I say, you’re wrong.
CT: What?
OD: we have described it
CT: Oh, yeah, ok yeah, we actually have described everything perfectly (OD: we have described it) and if you’re (OD: because we’re the experts) if you’re saying, like “ring-ding-ding, like oh, I think you haven’t explained anything” like I think it’s actually really hard to describe, “it sounds like you guys are just, um, trashing people with boyfriends (OD: bitter? Some would say bitter) No, you can’t be bitter if you are correct-
OD: And engaged, that’s the elephant in the room, and you should be thinking about that with every word that we say
CT: I think a girl who is smart, a Georgetown girl, has a- when a woman is smart, I think you have a lot more – you are expected to do it all, you are expected to be a Jack of all trades, a renaissance woman. When a man is smart, you can very easily just be smart – you can literally just be good at math (OD: yeah) You can be, essentially non-verbal… oh my god – beep, not that (OD: you;re describing someone) That can’t be there. Not that. I think, a lot of-
OD: You don’t have to be multifaceted, and you don’t have to be renaissance if you are, a man who is smart.
CT: I think that really is something though, of how much – I think a girl, is expected to be much – or – as a girl, you have to be better conversationally (OD: OH, uh-hu) DO you know what I mean, I really think there’s something there, where, I think, there’s, there’s Georgetown boys – even good looking ones, who, you get to the bottom of it, and you think: “wait, was I holding down the entire fort of that conversation?”
OD: Well, exactly, and your realize, practically, it’s like – all quiet on the western front, in terms of like – that doesn’t mean anything (CT: that’s ok) um, but, you, you bring up an interesting point in terms of you leave the conversation, and you think, “well what did he actually say?” (CT: right, was he just -) and you know that he has to be smart, in some capacity, because he’s here, at this high achieving school-
CT: Or perhaps Papa has money- we never – I never wanna assume anything about anyone.
OD: No, no, we would never say that, we would never insinuate that. We love, the admissions office
CT: No, but I think, sometimes, or like, there’s even more of like a, you meet someone at a party or something, and I think there’s a lot of Georgetown kids who do this, who like, you meet someone or there’s someone you’re in a class with, and people are like wired about saying hi.
OD: Oh, oh. I didn’t think you were gonna take it there, but 100%
CT: Know what I mean? Where were you thinking?
OD: I was thinking about, how low the bar is, is when you meet someone, if they like, are able to have a back and forth with you, it’s absolutely earth-shattering, again, glass ceiling being broken, everyone is shocked –
CT: Some of the sorry tales, the absolute hoops I jump through, to be like, to even tell you guys – like I’ll be telling my roommate, telling my friends, I’ll be like “Um, he actually like seemed, really, like (OD: a little bit funny?) people will be like “was he funny?” I’ll be like “uh” (OD: He could be, he could be in a lab, if you told him how to be funny, maybe) Exactly, he needs to go through a training program, where he legally has to be funny to leave
OD: But every woman is, a little bit funny, I think, and that goes back -that’s the throughline, of what it is to be a woman, at Georgetown, specifically
CT: Uh, no, yeah I think – the kinds of backbends I do, describing a crush to friends, I’ll be like, (OD: doing a kickline) oh, like, yeah I’m doing – I’m literally like, “you know what, he…” They’ll be like: “was he, like very tall?” Like, well… he, you know (OD: he’s tall enough) He’s taller than me. (OD: I think he’s tall enough for three inch heels) And… he’s kinda cute, and he definitely remembered my name, he remembered my name, and that’s important, and he remembered that we had a class together – after I said, we had a class together, he said, oh sure I guess so. Hero prince
OD: and that’s the first green flag, ism when he’s willing to go out on a limb like that and say “that’s right we did have a class together, and we actually used to talk to each other in class”(CT: and I’m like – Oh my god) It’s like, ok princess
CT: I can’t believe I’m getting married to you right now
OD: I can’t believe I’m done kissing all the frogs, I’ve found my prince, here he is, walk the red carpet
CT: It really is pitiful, just all the things – and then, while, and this is just a dating tip in general that I’ve been trying to teach myself lately, which is just, ask yourself, do I like him?
OD: radical, radical
CT: I think, I think, I think, “oh, does he like me, does he like me?”, Caroline,, shshshs, do you like him?
OD: Stop the he loves me, he loves me not, it’s done, we’re here to end, it right now. Yeah that’s an important question that my therapist often asks me, she says “Olivia, do you like this boy?” And I say, “hmm, he demonstrated interest, ergo-” (CT: demonstrated interest is really…) Like all colleges, women like it as well, shockingly. Um, but I would also say something that’s important to me, is the sort of runaway bride metaphor, (CT: i feel like you actually start, oftentimes from a place of metaphor and then I’m like… sort of unravel) No and then, I get there I get there. Listen, and I got there, because I was thinking about my therapist, and she said this, she says this to me often- I’ve never actually seen this film, but it’s famous and it has Julia Roberts in it – but essentially the idea is that with each guy that she’s with – you’ve heard this before – they say like “oh, how do you like your ex” and then she says she likes her ex, exaaaactllyyy how the guy likes, the ex, and then by the end of the film, she knows how she likes her ex herself, and I think that’s kind of a related thing – and we’ve gone off on a –
CT: that you don;’t have to change yourself for, for boys
OD: Yeah, right, and I feel like a lot of the message is change yourself, it is Olivia Newton John in Grease, which, yeah
CT: I feel like whenever I have a better connection with a guy, I’m like “oh my god, I feel more like myself”, um, I’m like oh I actually thought I was being funny, I thought I was having banter, you know what I mean. (OD: I think I need to think about that) When I feel, I’m not, like as nervous, I’m not being like oh, was I- I don’t even know, I’m doubting myself less, and I’m like, cause if I don’t feel like I’m being funny… (OD: it’s over) I’m like: Caroline you have never been wrong about anything, you’re perfect(OD: that’s true) and it’s actually, that he –
OD: There’s something wrong with him. Not only is it not a love match, there’s something actively wrong with him. If it’s not there, and if you don’t feel like yourself. Well I’ll be carrying that with me, definitely, this week, I’ll put that in my backpack, as the American studies program, says to do
CT: One thing, that really, struck a chord with me this summer was, um, if you are ever confused, about a situation, or a guy, actually, it’s not a good thing, and it’s a sign that it’s gonna go ahead and be a bad… thing
OD: are you referring to “if he wanted to he would” the gospel of John? The gospel of Jane.
CT: It very much ties into that, where it really is, like a quite similar concept,(OD: it is a creed) where, um, yeah it’s like, if you ever are feeling confused, it’s not like (OD: it’s not right guy wrong time) It’s not like, oh love is comp- or not love, ugh, it’s not like, that’s not how a relationship should be, as it turns out (OD: No, no shockingly) someone said that to me this summer, and I was like [gasp]
OD: No it’s not what it is, and you should just know. I assume. Actually I know, I know, again I know I know, but – I assume you should, but –
CT: There’s no boyfriend phase worse, than – this is kind of loosely tied to boyfriend phase, but, one of the big red flags in a relationship is when someone does one of those posts that’s like
OD: oh, when you’re really performing
CT: yeah, like “three years with the man of my dreams, (OD: my best friend) the love of my life, the goofy guy who gets me up in the morning, and you’re like “that’s your best friend?”
OD: Shut up, what do you guys talk about –
CT: no man is that interesting,
OD: actually what do you have in common
CT: shut up
OD: What. Do. You. Talk. About
CT: you’re sounding crazy right now
OD: As all women are
CT: Cause every woman, has to be weird
OD: i think it’s sort of canary in the coal mine when you’re seeing a loooot of boyfriend heavy instagram posts, which, I’m kind of famously unplugged
CT: Right, Oilivias kind of off social med right now
OD: yeah I’m off the grid, can you believe it, radical political act of me to do
CT: So I guess I was gonna ask, re. Story time, if you had any, funny stories or any ummm… I can tell a story from this summer. I was on a first date and this guy, I’ve told you this story right, no I definitely have told you this story, I’ve told you over the phone. Um, so hee –
OD: Can’t wait to experience it live, it’ll be great to see it live in the studio. Oh I know what you’re gonna say.
CT: At one point, during the meal – we went to dinner together, at a Mexican restaurant, and I already knew, seemed a bit odd, I was like, oh, we’re not gonna go on another date, but whatever, it was fine, it was fine enough, he said, to me, at one point, he goes – so I’m in the bathroom, I return form the bathroom to see, he had actually eaten the entire bowl of refried beans, he hadn’t just eaten all of it, he had licked it clean. He had sort of, in the minutes, in the mere minutes I was in the bathroom he had sort of gotten his way right on through that.
OD: What a terrible thing to do
CT: And, I, I, it was, it was, like as anyone would, I asked him, cause you had to- it was the elephant in the room, it was a community sized bowl it wasn’t a personal bowl of beans, it was a community sized bowl of beans
OD: Let me, let me, audience question, so when you went about ordering, did he order, or was it sort of like, we’re gonna, we’re gonna split, and then –
CT: oh nonoo this was a side, with his meal, umm
OD: So he did go about ordering it himself,
CT: he did order it, and it was an unusually large bowl, to give two people
OD: Sorry just one more, one more follow up question: When you went to the bathroom, had both of you already begun eating
CT: yes
OD: OK, oking holes in your argument
CT: No, yeah, thank you so much. And, uh, he had eaten his entire bowl of refried beans. Suprise surprise, merry christmas, bottom of the tree, no refried beans. Uhm, and, and then he went –
OD: Bottom of the tree, no refried beans, are you kidding? No please, continue
CT: And I go “OH, um, looks like you really like beans” as anyone would say, cause what else is there to say. And instead of lying, like a normal person, he said that he had, a bean specific problem, and I go oh, oh no
OD: sort of a double entendre there.
CT: Uhhu, I was like, bean specific of all things, yes it was bean specific. Ultimately, yeah, so I didn’t try to dig into it anymore, cause I was just like, you can’t (OD: no of course, of course) . My response to, that he had a bean specific problem was “I like beans too” casuse what else are you gonna say.
OD: That’s healthy, no and you already know you’re known as bean specific, um
CT: And yet important and endearing
OD: Oh of course, of course, it’s again, a testimony to being a man in America.
CT: Hmm. Ok, do you have any, I guess like, I, I feel like one way I wanna, I don’t know, finish off, we’ve been doing it for like 50 minutes, but, one question I’ve been loving asking people lately is: if you could give any piece of advice to your freshman year self, what would you say?
OD: Oh, that’s a really good question. I would say like, I would feel like, stop taking yourself so seriously. Like you don’t have to be a Nobel scholar, like it’s gonna be okay. Um, and ultimately I’ve been toying with this idea of like, I’m, always really stressed out about things ahead of time, like down the line, like I always have a pit in my stomach about like “what am I gonna do next summer, or when am I gonna xyz, how am I gonna do this or that. Like, you know what I mean. And, so lately I’ve been asking myself the question of: do I always figure it out because I stress myself out about it, or am I just ok, as a person, and everything has a way of working itself out.
CT: You’re just a very qualified, competent woman, and it will always, you’ll just, you will figure it out, ultimately
OD: I would just tell myself, stop taking yourself so seriously, and also maybe consider believing in yourself. Not to be literally Disney channel original movie on that, but I think it’s important, and I think also like its so easy, sorry I’m gonna say the words: imposter syndrome, it’s so easy to feel like that here. It’s like ultimately, like, no one is more busy, no one is more important, like everything that you do is like, I’m writing my thesis on American Girl Dolls, because it’s interesting to me
CT: Right, yeah and like it’s, no one is ever posting on Linkedin, I’m still looking for a job
OD: exactly, no one, no one’s posting “I don’t have a boyfriend to do boyfriend face with”. OK, no one is saying that (CT: right) you don’t really see the other side to people I think
CT: it’s easy to feel though, that everyone else is, hyper-successful, and has everything figured out, and that you’re a loser
OD: One time, no, one time, I was really upset about something, and I was at one of my friends house, and I was very upset in sort of, their common area, and one of her roommates said to me, like “oh my god, like I’ve never, it’s just so humanizing to see you upset.” And I was like, but that really made me think, because I was like, yeah, that’s literally like, no one shows like their real, and that’s not just Georgetown, that’s like, what it is, like period point blank. No one’s listing all the schools they didn’t get into, like whatever, but that’s something that I feel like I wish I’d known, like its ok, its ok to be authentic and real, and if you don’t wanna do a little dance when you see people on campus its ok, you don’t have to constantly be performing.
CT: Oh, I always –
OD: I know, you always do a dance, which is, encouraging
CT: sometimes it’s the only thing- it really brightens my day sometimes, although when I’m not in a good mood and I don’t do a salute to someone, people are like ooh, is there something wrong with Caroline
OD: yeah, you need to be consistent
CT: I feel like, good about where I’m, I’m like happy, with how my college experience has gone. I think no matter what, freshman year is gonna be, you’re gonna make a lot of mistakes, you’re gonna kiss a lot of ass? Um, for one
OD: You know another piece of advice I’d tell myself – keep hanging out with that girl Caroline. Hey, your Freshman roommate, she’s pretty cool.
CT: Despite appearances she’s alright
OD: Shockingly. I was just buying you time there
CT: Thank you, thank you. I appreciate the purchase. I really think, I would just say, Caroline ,just, I, I feel like, be yourself, like I think, I’m someone who, I typically take a long time to warm up to people, and I’m always someone who, like in highschool I was this way, I was like, much more shy freshman year, and over the years I got a lot more confident in myself. But I feel like my concern is that I feel like I keep starting over, sometimes. This summer I think I did a better job, with trying to be, like a little less, like reserved, and like, just being like, whatever, I would be like hyper-conscious of how I though people perceived me, um, yeah even on my favorite thing, I’m on the improv team, it’s like my favorite thing that I do here, but like, I think, my first year on the team, I would get, I had a pit in my stomach everyday when I went to practice, I would get so nervous, and like, it was like fun, but like, I was just like, always like nervous that I wasn’t doing good enough at something, and I just feel like, a lot of what I learned at college was just letting it go. Giving yourself free time, I feel like I learned a lot about just prioritizing free-time, and downtime, and pure downtime, some people do, still, have, and I’m, I guess perfect so… some people have like zero downtime, or like feel guilty. That’s another thing that’s hard to get past, feeling guilty, when you’re not doing work.
OD: It’s hard to get out of that intensive grind mentality. Like famously I took the LSAT, again elephant in the room, and coming out of that, coming out of that, I think the first week, I was like “I’m smelling the roses” and that’s my entire goal, and I’m just gonna sort of wanderlust my way around campus and around life, and for a week like that worked right, and then literally the week after I was already back in the rat race, of like of my god I’m just stressed about being stressed, and dadadadada, and what am I gonna do, and all this stuff, and it’s just like, that’s so not necessary. (CT: Exactly) Like, let go and let god, in the words of Kim Kardashian, or is it Kris-
CT: right, like people, and I feel like people will still, try and like give you, they’ll make comments, cause people really do, like, like, I’ll, I feel like, people will be like, “oh what were you up to today” And I’l be like I don’t know I just kind of walked around…
OD: yeah, and that’s offensive to some people
CT: And people will be like, ahahahaha, acting like, thinking I’m like joking or something, like no I literally just walked around. You don;t have to do anything- like you don’t have to be like ok, I didn’t do homework today, but I ran a marathon, and I –
OD: exactly, like not for productivity’s sake, just doing things to do them, not to be like, while this is- like sometimes, I found myself, this is insane, like justifying social outings, as being like, well thats productive, because it’s for my social life. It’s like, thats- you can’t G-cal categorize like levels of productivity of like – which don’t get me wrong, I live by my G-cal, and color code it according to social activities, of course, but it’s like, you can’t- like, not everything you do is gonna be productive, and it’s okay to not be productive all the time. Productivity monster is actually something, a scientific phrase that I’ve coined for this, internal, monster in your brain that’s like, “go go go go go” (CT:right) “you layed in bed for 15 minutes longer than you should have this morning, checking twitter, what are you doing”
CT: right, and it’s okay
*outro music plays*
CT: Well, that’s the end of our time together. We want to thank you all for tuning in, for our very first episode of “Guys girls”, I’m your host Caroline Timoney, here with-
OD: Me, Olivia Duff, um and this podcast was also edited by Amna Shamim and produced by Alicia Novoa and all of our very best friends at the Hoya,
CT: we love you guys
OD: Literally love you, kiss you, miss you
BOTH: Bye
